[Tfug] Worldcare

[Bexley Hall]

Hi, John,

--- johngalt1 <johngalt1 at uswest.net> wrote:

> From: "Eric Christian" <ericdanc>
> 
> >> From: Bexley Hall <bexley401>
> >>
> >> I rescued an Ezgo E7041 at WorldCare last week.
> >> It's a cute little machine -- about the size
> >>
> > what's this "WorldCare"? didn't seem to be around
> > as i was there.
> 
> Suppose you are a dumb ass. (like I am)
> 
> Perhaps we could presume Don Bexley is a World Care
> humanitarian relief recipient. Toward the aim of
> self
> sustainability he rescued a cute little computer.
> 
> No, World Care is an independent, secular, 501(c)3
> organization dedicated to raising consciousness in
> the local
> and international arenas of education, health,
> environment,
> and community service.
> http://freewcare.bitsonthewire.com/default.asp
> 
> But how does this relate to the thrift store? Yeah,
> what
> thrift store? lets see:
>
http://www.google.com/search?q=store+site%3Aworldcare.org
> Oh, buried in a PDF is mention of the store.
> 
> What about the link Paul Scott provided
>
http://freewcare.bitsonthewire.com/About/default.asp?ID=521
> Oh there I see it: Another little mention of the
> thrift
> store. But where is this thrift store?
> 
> This link provides location and hours of their
> facility
>
http://freewcare.bitsonthewire.com/Tools/default.asp?ID=534
> But where is mention of the store on that page?
> 
> Clearly for dumb asses like me, finding out about
> World
> Care's thrift store entails tying together a couple
> of
> indirect references in bitsonthewire.com and
> worldcare.com

I made no reference to the thrift store in my original
post.  How about:
s/WorldCare/U of A surplus property auction/
or:
s/WorldCare/a friend who was discarding it/
or:
s/WorldCare/a trash pile on the side of the road/

Does that make things easier? :>  (i.e. WC isn't
germane to my original post)  Rather, I was
wondering if anyone had ever played with one of
these little things before (conversely, why they
*hadn't*!)

I didn't respond to Eric's comment as, frankly,
I couldn't parse his meaning  <:-(

> Let's suppose you work for a living? Hours 9-3
> Mon-Sat Saturday is the day you should plan on
> going to WorldCare; before mid-afternoon.

Yes.  Since WC is short on staff, they can't
afford to divert manpower to keeping a store
open when there are things like Myanmar that
are more pressing (WC's mission is humanitarian
relief, not "selling stuff")
 
> But back to Don Bexley Hall's cute computer... Every
> computer I saw (only been there once) was working
> and loaded with an operating system.

Not true.  Some machines are sold with no OS or
with just something like "command.com" installed.

> From this:
>
http://www.tfug.org/pipermail/tfug/2008-March/018211.html
> it appears that World Care has the resources to
> build computers for people to buy as working
systems.
> 
> But what if you want to buy a computer from
> WorldCare as every other thrift store sells them:
> WYSIWYG?

Everything sold is "As Is, Where Is".

> Apparently, you have to know someone.
>
http://www.tfug.org/pipermail/tfug_tfug.org/2008-March/018163.html
>
http://www.tfug.org/pipermail/tfug_tfug.org/2008-March/018171.html
> 
> This is the World Care thrift store paradox. They
> have the resources to make working systems
> available but they don't have the resources to
> make most of the computers available
> (working or not) and consign them to the old
> electronics hades of materials recycling.

WC spends it's precious volunteer hours in the way
that it thinks it gets the most value.  For the most
part, the people who drop in to the WC store want a
machine that they can *use* -- not a pile of scrap
parts that *might* contain some hidden gems (those
folks visit other surplus outlets around town).
Even if you write -- in indelible marker -- "Does
NOT Work" on the computer's case, someone will buy
it and then return complaining that it *doesn't*
work... and, wanting their money back.

WC staff don't have time to spend dealing with
this sort of distraction.  Items are sold as is
but with every attempt made to ensure that the
item operates as an item of that type would be
expected to operate (e.g., a computer "computes",
an electric iron "heats up", a printer makes
marks on paper, etc.).  Beyond that, it's
caveat emptor.

WC receives hundreds of "electronic devices" every
month (week??).  Since you've been to the store,
you can see how strapped for space it is.  Where
would you suggest 100 "TRULY as is" computers be
piled up for display?  How many of them would
"move" in the time it takes the *next* 100 computers
to arrive??

Note that there are several "server"-class machines
that just sit in the store gathering dust.  $40
for a dual P3 1GHz machine.   *Known* to work and 
has a running Linux installed.   Yet, it's been there
for *months*.

Ah, I guess $40 is too much.  What should it sell
for?  (I am seriously asking!)  Maybe $20?  But,
it should still *work*, right?  Or, for $20 is it
OK if it was just set out there "as received"...
possibly without disk drives... or, missing memory...
or, with a defective power supply... ?

And, should there be facilities where "potential
buyers" could *test* and *dismantle* those machines
before purchasing (to reduce their "risk")?  You'll
note that UofA auctions let you "power up" a machine,
but the cases are *taped* shut so if it doesn't
power up, you haven't a clue as to what's inside!
(as such, WC should tape it's machines closed)

I've seen folks dismantle machines in the store
to see what *flavor* memory was inside.  Gee, I
wonder if BestBuy or CircuitCity let them do that?

I've seen people grumble about $2 for a video card.

Or, wonder why they have to pay $1 for a power cord
(why aren't they *free*? -- they *are*, with
computers,
printers, etc.)

Or, why a $50 machine has W98 on it instead of XP
(hint:  how much does an XP license cost?)

Or, why a $20 machine had *no* OS on it

Etc.

I suspect that if WC were to receive a reliable grant
to cover the costs of operation, the store would
be gone before the grant check was cashed.  It takes
a lot of resources to keep the store open.  Instead
of spending time getting (whatever) ready for 
*possible* sale in the store, that time could be
spent getting those (or other) items ready for
distribution to a needy family, victim of domestic
violence, disaster victim, etc.  (i.e., time NOT
spent getting a computer ready for sale could be
spent packing medical supplies for shipment abroad)

> So how did Don Bexley Hall procure a computer
> without the power supply brick? Was it one of 
> those behind the scenes units that non-volunteers
> don't see?

As I said, it was "rescued" (from the recycling bin).
WC would never invest the time in re-capping a device
like this -- it's too old, obscure, hard to find
drivers, etc.  Nor would they invest the *money*
to do so -- since the power supply would have to
be purchased to make it operational.  So, it finds
its way to the recycle pile.

I, on the other hand, design and build very small
"things" for a living.  So, I am always interested
in anything appliance-like and/or with unique
packaging.  An I/O rich PC in a box this small is
very interesting to me.  Just seeing how you could
*fit* that much stuff in a box that small GIVEN
IT'S AGE is instructive.

"Gee, why did they resort to a single-output power
supply instead of moving some of that complexity
*out* of the "PC enclosure" and into the power
supply?"

"Why only two memory devices?"

"Why the second fan?"

"What's the effective thermal coefficient of that
active heatsink assembly?"

> If I have mis-portrayed the perception of World
> Care's lack
> of zeal to make its thrift store known please set me
> straight.

I think past TFUG posts have covered this almost
*painfully*.  Search the archives.

Recall, WC is not a "thrift store".  It's main goal
is humanitarian aid (through recycling).  The store
just helps cover the cost of keeping the building
open (this should be obvious from the amount of
floor space set aside for the store vs. the rest of
the operation -- probably 5%.  Contrast that with
the floor space of any other "thrift store" in town.
Or, *retail* store!)

> Also what about this perception of World Care's 
> perfectionism to build systems, but its disregard of
> potential paying customers who are willing to take a
> chance 
> on buying something that passes a power up test?

I'm still waiting to hear how those items should
be priced.  And, *where* they should be placed in
the store -- displacing other *working* items that
can command, presumably, a *higher* price (I assume
you want to trade "risk" for "price").

Perhaps WC should adopt the UofA's approach:  just
bundle machines in a pallet -- "As is" -- and let
the buyer haul them off?

Of course, WC would *assume* that the buyer would
be responsible and keep anything that did not work
(or, was unsatisfactory for whatever reason) out
of the landfill.  I.e., *recycle* those things!

Hmmm... but where to recycle them?

Ah, at WC, of course!

And, those items can then get bundled up into another
pallet to be sold to the next guy.  Etc.

Of course, this wouldn't work.  *Some* percentage of
items would gradually filter out of the loop and
effectively be recycled/reused.  But, the rest would
just go round-and-round wasting resources at each
iteration.

> This is how 
> every other thrift store operates. Why is World
> Care's 
> thrift store different? The paradigm shift is
> confusing.

Because WC is not a thrift store!!!

I can't stress this enough!  Walk into a Saver's,
Salvation Army, etc. thrift store.  Do you see
anyone "behind the scenes" stuffing medical
supplies into boxes for Katrina victims?  Do
you see anyone repairing computers and
distributing them to children who have lost a
parent to murder?  Do you see anyone sorting
clothing for folks recently released from prison?

All of the people -- and *resources* -- that you
see are dedicated to running that thrift store!

This is not true at WC.  The thrift store is the
"tail", not the "dog".  This is why the thrift
store has such odd -- and variable -- hours
(almost as bad as "Tuesday Morning"... I think
that's there name?).  And, why, when there is a
shortage of available labor, the thrift store is
the first "casualty" (closed!).  WC is in the
business of humanitarian relief, not "selling
cheap stuff".

It would be *great* if WC had the resources to 
fully staff the store -- folks available to
answer questions, help carry things out to your
car, process "returns", reorganize the place to make
it more "presentable"/organized, etc.  But, there
would *still* be the tug of other needs that would
divert those extra resources (staff, money, space,
etc.) to serve their *real* goal -- humanitarian
relief.

Try giving WC 50 - 100 hours of your time (you
won't *see* anything in a single 8 hour day) to
get a feel for what WC is *really* about!  And,
when you find yourself paged to answer someone's
question in the store about the "specs" on some
random sound card in the $2 pile, you'll see
just how much of a burden the store can be to
you "getting your work done"  :<

Or, sit in your easy chair watching the flood
waters on TV and (*sincerely*!) mumble, "Gee,
that's too bad...."

<frown>

(Sorry, this post sounds "pissy".  It isn't
intended to be.  But, it's *really* hard trying
to get people to realize what WC is all about and
how much work goes into keeping it running.)

--don



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